So I just PM'd David Buschur to ask if he was running his stock fuel rail and he said that he was, but not anymore due to the cracking of them on a customers. But he did say that his stock fuel rail could support HP which is around 600 I believe.
600 is def. impressive on a stock unit. While an upgraded unit may not be 100% necesary for the hp i am going for, id rather have peace of mind knowing that it is there. Kind of like how people, although not boosting much over 23 psi like to put in walbro pumps in ix's even though their stock unit would most likely do just fine.
I own a IX and i needed to get a walbro. it was necaceary. when I got my first tune by a local shop they told me it would be wise to get it if u are goin over 24 and up.... the flow of the IXs is good but its still not a 255lph. and it will not pump as fast as a 255.
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GG Evo IX Ethanol MR
Tobz Tuned
PMI 12.62
600 is def. impressive on a stock unit. While an upgraded unit may not be 100% necesary for the hp i am going for, id rather have peace of mind knowing that it is there. Kind of like how people, although not boosting much over 23 psi like to put in walbro pumps in ix's even though their stock unit would most likely do just fine.
It is quite alright if you just want to do it for the hell of it - no problem. However, you can't compare it to doing a fuel pump with raised boost, because like I said, the stock pumps are KNOWN to overheat and fail. The IX pump is better than the VIII pump, but due to all the failures on the VIII pumps, people were much more cautious with the IXs. I hope you can see how that is in no way comparable to changing the fuel rail "just because." It does not fail and has no history of failing, so I just don't want people thinking it is a necessary mod, and i want them to know that some of the best in the business DO NOT upgrade it with much more powerful cars.
Local shops and local tuners? Ok. I just suggest rounding out your education by staying abreast of the rest of the Evo world that has far more information, knowledge, and experience with such things.
I also have stock head bolts and have been running big boost on alky, race gas, and e-85 since November of 2005 on what is a daily driver. That's another thing that doesn't fail but people are scared into upgrading them. Another would be ignition - I have stock ignition with 8-series plugs.
I'm sorry to say, but Buschur Racing is NOT the rest of the world. He is of one school of thought. While this may be the school of thought you like, it is not the only correct one. Most builders and REAL tuners (Ben Strader) will recommend a properly built fuel system. They too make big power cars. The rest of the world also includes AMS, DTM, Norris Designs, HKS (who is the authority on all things Evo since the Evo 1), RRE, etc, etc......
I previously discussed the fuel rail issue here: trying to go E85
People scared to run 8 series plugs??????? I don't think so. I just saw 5 guys doing the same thing under the same conditions on both VIII's and XI's. A couple of those guys didn't even realize they weren't stock on their car until I pointed it out. I was doing that fully stock since 04. If you were truly ballsy, try 9's on for size. Sounds stupid, doesn't it? That's because it is. Your other examples are one school of thought. While it can be done, it doesn't mean it's advisable especially if you're trying to push your car the limit.
So I just PM'd David Buschur to ask if he was running his stock fuel rail and he said that he was, but not anymore due to the cracking of them on a customers. But he did say that his stock fuel rail could support HP which is around 600 I believe.
One thing to bear in mind is he likes to push all parts to the limits really to see what will happen. He also has the time and money to correct any issues he causes to his own car.
Make no mistake, I'm not bashing Buschur, but I wouldn't do it just because he did.
Wanted, I didn't say anyone was scared to run VIIIs. I said people have been scared INTO running parts they don't need, such as head studs, ignition amplifiers, and fuel rails - all on stock turbo'd cars. I said I _only_ run one step colder plugs, and that is all I need to run 11.5s on the stock turbo - nothing more.
I also didn't say Buschur was the rest of the world, and I didn't say they were _the_ end-all/be-all. I said "some" of the best, and I specifically chose that word. Your comment that Buschur pushes his parts to the limit and can replace them isn't even relevant to my comments, because I am talking about CUSTOMERS of his, not the shop cars, although the shop cars can be included, too. They have built customer cars without touching the fuel rail, because it is not necessary even when flowing vastly more fuel than we could ever imagine on the stock or near-stock turbo.
Unlike you, if Buschur did it, I _would_ do it. They have definitely proven themselves, and we're talking about cars that aren't even in the same galaxy as the ones discussed in this thread. People should not be scared into purchasing parts like this when there isn't data to support it. Just wrapping the safety clause around it isn't fair. There are PLENTY of things we do that push the limits more than using a stock fuel rail on the stock turbo...
Wanted, I didn't say anyone was scared to run VIIIs. I said people have been scared INTO running parts they don't need, such as head studs, ignition amplifiers, and fuel rails - all on stock turbo'd cars. I said I _only_ run one step colder plugs, and that is all I need to run 11.5s on the stock turbo - nothing more.
I also didn't say Buschur was the rest of the world, and I didn't say they were _the_ end-all/be-all. I said "some" of the best, and I specifically chose that word. Your comment that Buschur pushes his parts to the limit and can replace them isn't even relevant to my comments, because I am talking about CUSTOMERS of his, not the shop cars, although the shop cars can be included, too. They have built customer cars without touching the fuel rail, because it is not necessary even when flowing vastly more fuel than we could ever imagine on the stock or near-stock turbo.
Unlike you, if Buschur did it, I _would_ do it. They have definitely proven themselves, and we're talking about cars that aren't even in the same galaxy as the ones discussed in this thread. People should not be scared into purchasing parts like this when there isn't data to support it. Just wrapping the safety clause around it isn't fair. There are PLENTY of things we do that push the limits more than using a stock fuel rail on the stock turbo...
If you had have worded the comment about 8 series plugs to begin with, that would not have come up in my post. What you write now is actually worded better and I can agree with that.
The only example you cited was one of Buschurs cars. Please cite us examples of other companies pushing that kind of power without the rail if you truly want to take a well rounded approach. If you re-read my posing in the thread I linked, that's the approach I took. No where in there did i ever say it can't be done, but I did explain some critical differences.
Finally, I realize you would. A lot of us do. And while you are correct in that people shouldn't be scared into buying them, they also should not be scared into not buying them as well. People deserve to know ALL the facts, which means both sides. It's critical in making an informed decision. The person who's car was shown did in fact have a fuel rail he chose not to run and has for sale. I can guarantee that Buschur explained both both the pro's and cons to him about whether or not to use it, and would have run it if the customer said install it.
Ditto on the cams! I have a stock 02 available if you wanna have a core to have it ported. Just a thought.
Also, ditto on NOT needing a fuel rail. Gotta remember, shops gotta sell parts to make a living...even if its stuff they know you don't need. I'm running 26psi with 1000cc injectors on E85 and there is no bottle neck in my system at all. We're only at 63% duty cycle. I was told before E85 wouldnt be possible on 1000cc's without an aftermarket fuel rail AND FPR. I have no bitterness about it cause like I said, they're in the business of selling and installing parts...so they're gonna try to do what they do. You're not gonna have a fuel shortage problem with stock rails or stock FPR or stock fuel lines as long as you have a good pump, correct injectors and most importantly.....a good tune.
Ditto on the cams! I have a stock 02 available if you wanna have a core to have it ported. Just a thought.
Also, ditto on NOT needing a fuel rail. Gotta remember, shops gotta sell parts to make a living...even if its stuff they know you don't need. I'm running 26psi with 1000cc injectors on E85 and there is no bottle neck in my system at all. We're only at 63% duty cycle. I was told before E85 wouldnt be possible on 1000cc's without an aftermarket fuel rail AND FPR. I have no bitterness about it cause like I said, they're in the business of selling and installing parts...so they're gonna try to do what they do. You're not gonna have a fuel shortage problem with stock rails or stock FPR or stock fuel lines as long as you have a good pump, correct injectors and most importantly.....a good tune.
Oddly enough we've pretty much figured this out, and our results would say otherwise..
And share your info and how you validated your statements in bold above..
Hell, we've even shown the fuel pump is not up to the task of supplying the volume of fuel required at elevated pressures that are becoming all to common on E85.
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