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Cylinder Head & Short Block Cams, valvetrain, pistons, rods, stroker kits, swaps, etc. Advanced modification discussions only.

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Old 05-15-2006, 06:11 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
Registered: Feb 2005
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The old springs and retainers debate.

Well I'm sure you guys have heard this one before. It's the old "I'd like to put in some cams do I need to upgrade springs and retainers" question. Just got done reading a 263 post thread over on evom that had Buschur vs. Revolver debating whether or not the stock spring retainers would hit the valve seals if HKS (272 or 264) cams were installed. Bushur was convinced there was no issue. Revolver insisted there was (and that everyone needed to buy their springs and retainers kit to remedy the problem). Numerous pictures and calculations claimed the additional 0.8mm of lift from the HKS cams over the stock cams would be enough to bring the retainers and seals into contact. The conclusion (and overall concesus) of that thread appeared to be "they do hit". Of course there are multiple (reliable) sources that have said it's nothing to be concerned about. Bushur stated they had installed hundreds of sets of cams in evos without upgrading and without any problems at all. I also asked AMS who said stock springs and retainers would be fine. Now there's no doubt in my mind that leaving stock springs and retainers in would be "fine", but just because it's "fine" doesn't mean it's "right".

So what do you guys think? Is it an issue? Did those of you running cams upgrade springs and retainers or not?
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Old 05-15-2006, 10:04 PM   #2 (permalink)
 
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on hks 264 or 272 cams, your stock valvetrain is fine. most evos ive seen rolling around with upgraded cams do not have v-spgs and retainers. but to answer your question, NO you dont HAVE to have upgraded valvetrain on 264 or 272. now if you get into 280s or an aggressive cam like JUN cams, you will definately need to upgrade your valves and retainers. i upgraded my valvetrain at the same time i did my cams and cam gears, but only because they were opening up the head anyways. i thought might as well do it now cuz i knew i was going to upgrade turbos soon. good luck!

T
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Old 05-16-2006, 06:30 AM   #3 (permalink)
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When I was looking into cams, one of my critera is that they could not require upgraded springs/retainers. This is what I found out;
With HKS (and their variants Buddy Club, GSC, etc.) with 10.8 mm (in) and 10.2mm (exh) of lift, upgraded springs are not required if you keep the RPM's below 7400.
If your reving higher, even with the prementioned cams, upgraded springs are highly recommended.
If the lift specs are bumped up just a tad, like in Comp cams' 119100 with 11.0mm (in) and 10.4mm (exh) of lift, upgraded springs are required if your going to rev past red line/7000 RPM's.
Any cams with higher lift specs are going to require upgraded springs and retainers.
If your car is going to require springs and retainers is really up to you and what you do with your car. If your looking for all out power you need them. If your diciplined enough and keep the revs down you can get away without them.
I've been running straight 264's from GSC daily for 10,000 miles on the stock valvetain. I keep the RPM's below 7200 and I have no problems.



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Old 05-16-2006, 08:29 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbolarry
If your car is going to require springs and retainers is really up to you and what you do with your car. If your looking for all out power you need them. If your diciplined enough and keep the revs down you can get away without them.
I've been running straight 264's from GSC daily for 10,000 miles on the stock valvetain. I keep the RPM's below 7200 and I have no problems.
I guess you're right. Whether or not I'll need springs or retainers is up to me. That's the great thing about building a car. There isn't always one right way to do things. If there was we could all just follow the same exact recipie and end up with the exact same car. But all warm fuzzy feelings aside, you guys haven't really heard much about the retainer to valve seal contact theory? If you haven't I'm guessing it's not very widely accepted. I guess I'm leaning towards replacing springs and retainers at the same time i do cams because if cams move my powerband upwards I guess I'd like to take advantage of it by being able to rev a little higher, for which i'd need to upgrade springs. But then I'd need special tools to change them out, not to mention an extra $200-$300 to purchase them.....

Here is the thread debating the retainers/valve seals contact issue
---> http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=117752
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Old 07-23-2006, 12:53 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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No matter what cam you upgrade to it is a good idea to upgrade your springs. It is not always needed as is the case with the hks/gsc setups. However even at that lift I have had shops tell me they have had the valves jumping on the seats when closing. With any more lift applied this situation can happen, affecting performance, and possible damage to your motor. I have installed quite a few hks setups with no problem, however when my cams go in so will upgraded springs. Its cheap insurance.
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Old 02-16-2007, 10:19 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Anytime that you get into 280's or better then its time to upgrade the spings for sure. Some have gotten away with stockers on the smaller cams but it's not a good place to cheap out.
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Old 03-06-2007, 06:54 AM   #7 (permalink)
 
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Upgraded Valve Springs & Retainer + Cams

One thing we have noticed here in our shop is the after market camshaft manufactures and vendors selling their products are not telling customers the entire truth about installing the more aggressive-higher lift camshafts in order to make a sale of their products.
Well this is not entirely true. Several things can happen when you install these cams, the valve spring harmonics are greatly increased to a level that can cause serious valve train issues, problems and damage, like the lifter ticking and failure, retainers hitting the tops of the valve stem seals and tearing the seals apart, bent-broken & dropped valves, valves hitting pistons, a real mess.
Your EVO valve springs and valve train geometry (as in any engine) is designed to open and close the valves at a particular time and lift and rate of lift.
Valves cannot not hold up to bouncing, flutter or slamming. When the valves cannot keep in proper time with the rest of the engine due to improper valve spring seat and open pressures your engine will experience "Valve Float", now this is when the costly problems begin to happen.
By simply installing the proper valve springs and retainers at the time of the camshaft upgrade your engine will run flawlessly and you can avoid costly, time consuming problems. The whole point of any upgrade is to enhance the performance of the car not to cause problem after problem.
It is far less expensive to replace all the needed components the first time then to rebuild or replace your entire engine later.
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:58 AM   #8 (permalink)
 
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I think that is great advise, but the problem for most folks comes in as to what that threshold is for when to upgrade. 272 cams for instance are all a bit different between GSC, Revolver, HKS, BC, Cosworth etc.... So one companies lift and duration may cross that threshold and require the upgraded valvtrain components where as the others does not and factory components are fine. I think finding out what the reliable max lift and duration on factory valvetrain components are and then knowing what the specs are of the cams you want is something that not enough enthusiasts do and pay for it down the road.
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