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Old 04-26-2007, 07:35 AM   #1 (permalink)
 
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New Sway Bar's

OK what I was woundering was what size are the stocker sway bar's and what are some good after market ones. I have seen then come in sizes from 19mm to 25mm, what I was wanting was just for the car to be just a bit more tight and a lill less body roll.

keep in mind that right now I am all stock but this is for the time to come thanks for all the help
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Old 04-26-2007, 07:53 AM   #2 (permalink)
 
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You won't fix those problems with sway bars. For one, we don't touch our front sway, because it's already very stiff up front. For two, if you stiffen the rear sway, you will just reduce overall grip by removing traction from the rear. It won't help with body roll. You need a proper set of coilovers with good damping, stiffer springs, corner balancing, and a good alignment.





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Old 04-26-2007, 11:10 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Stock rear bar is 22mm. Repalcing the rear will reduce slight understeer;
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/evoswaybar.htm



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Old 04-26-2007, 12:57 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Yes, it reduces understeer by reducing rear grip unfortunately.





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Old 04-26-2007, 07:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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the battle between the two camps, stiffer springs vrs stiffer bar. pick you style and go with it.
there are winners in both camps.
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Old 04-26-2007, 08:43 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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in autox the rear end being a little loose can actually help you. it can get you pointed in the right direction by using slip angles instead of wait for the car to rotate.
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Old 04-27-2007, 03:56 AM   #7 (permalink)
 
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Warr is right and wrong. Most evo owners dont touch the front bar, because common tuning ideas in the states and Japan use higher spring rates to reduce body roll. Dampening, balancing, and alignment arent for body roll, but they help with everything else. The only problem with high spring rates is it can make for a really rough ride, considering the fact that it takes very high spring rates to reduce a lot of roll, and that then requires heavy dampening.
Whiteline in particular has taken to using sway bar for handling, I guess because the roads are usually pretty rough in Australia. I guess it just depends on which route you want to go.
PS- just a rear bar does reduce some grip in the rear, but makes the car much easier to drive by being balanced
PPS-most people dont do the front sway bar because its a pain in the ass the requires dropping the front subframe, not because its stiff enough. thats like saying the evo has enough power, why upgrade
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Old 04-27-2007, 05:26 AM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Quite the opposite of what Paul Gerrard says regarding the frotn sway bar, Jazzie. I am just repeating what he told me.

As for the rear sway making the car easier to drive, it's just a false impression. You should not make the car more "balanced" by removing grip. You balance the Evo by ADDING front grip. That's the whole philosophy to my monster setup, which is being adopted by the top racers in the country, however, the kits are extremely hard to get due to lack of supply.





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Old 04-27-2007, 07:09 AM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Clayton is right in some respects but it's not as simple as removing or adding grip. Also keep in mind that he is tuning for a front LSD and ACD whereas I'm coming from the point of view of the 50/50 split with an open front differential. The differentials, in my opinion, are the biggest key to the Evo's performance. Which is why the older model got killed in SCCA T2 competition and the STi trounced 'em. But that is off topic!

With that said, I'm of the philosophy that different aspects of the suspension cause the car to behave differently through the three phases of a corner (entry, steady state or mid-corner and exit). The open diff Evo versions "plow" by nature so there are a lot of things to look at. A bigger rear sway bar is really only going to effect corner exit. I've autoX'd three different rear sway bars varying from the stock size to what I'm currently running now, which is an AP 27 mm rear sway bar. On street tires, the car is not better balanced but behaves better on corner exit. I only acheived true "balance" through 15mm front spacers, a toe-out alignment, caster plates and spring rates.

With you having an '06, I would not look at a sway bar straight away. I would replace the endlinks (front/rear) as well as the front and rear sway bar bushings. That will help firm up the "feel" of the car and give you a better idea of what the car needs.
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Old 04-28-2007, 06:16 AM   #10 (permalink)
 
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Well this is some good info I thank all of you that put forth the info, as far a lowering springs go what do I need to look for( like brand of spring, and I dont want it to ride like crap thanks
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Old 04-28-2007, 09:23 AM   #11 (permalink)
 
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lowering springs and stock struts dont really mix to well. most all of them will have a harsher ride. eibach is a good company but you will blow out your struts faster than usual.
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Old 04-30-2007, 06:47 AM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realslow4drz View Post
Well this is some good info I thank all of you that put forth the info, as far a lowering springs go what do I need to look for( like brand of spring, and I dont want it to ride like crap thanks

Don't bother with springs, save you pennies and buy coilovers or set of bilstein struts.
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:23 AM   #13 (permalink)
 
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What is the width of the stock front bar then? Given what has been said so far, wouldn't it be logical to get a thinner front sway bar (relative to stock thickness) to increase front grip?

Also, given that sway bars and stiffness are relative only to front and rear, would it therefore not be logical that a set of sway bars made from the same manufacturer (e.g. Cusco, Whiteline, etc) would have taken into consideration the objective of creating a balanced state of stiffness for optimal traction?

If so, then the practice of replacing only the rear is only partially true. Clayton increased grip on his fronts, not only in an absolute fashion, but also relative to the rear. If so, then the objective here would be to increase ultimate grip on front AND rear, while improving the grip balance between front and rear.

To achieve this, one can buy bits and pieces of kit like strut bars and sway bars, and the total would add up pretty much to the cost of a good coilover, hence Clayton's comment that it makes more sense to get a good coilover setup to improve ultimate grip, and the adjustability of the coilovers should allow a good suspension tuner to balance the relative grip, front and rear (using corner balancing?)

If none of the above makes sense to anyone, I need to cut back on Dr Peppers and Milk Duds.
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Old 04-30-2007, 01:08 PM   #14 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by ghoonk View Post
What is the width of the stock front bar then? Given what has been said so far, wouldn't it be logical to get a thinner front sway bar (relative to stock thickness) to increase front grip?
The front bar is 24 mm and the rear is 23 mm I believe. I've thought about this and ultimately it makes sense, however, the labor involved to make that change when you can address that problem in other ways would prohibit me from going to a Cusco 21 mm front.

Quote:
Also, given that sway bars and stiffness are relative only to front and rear, would it therefore not be logical that a set of sway bars made from the same manufacturer (e.g. Cusco, Whiteline, etc) would have taken into consideration the objective of creating a balanced state of stiffness for optimal traction?
Yes, but then again see the response above, 10 hours of labor to drop the subframe for just the sway bar is not how I want to spend an afternoon!

Quote:
If so, then the practice of replacing only the rear is only partially true. Clayton increased grip on his fronts, not only in an absolute fashion, but also relative to the rear. If so, then the objective here would be to increase ultimate grip on front AND rear, while improving the grip balance between front and rear.

To achieve this, one can buy bits and pieces of kit like strut bars and sway bars, and the total would add up pretty much to the cost of a good coilover, hence Clayton's comment that it makes more sense to get a good coilover setup to improve ultimate grip, and the adjustability of the coilovers should allow a good suspension tuner to balance the relative grip, front and rear (using corner balancing?)

If none of the above makes sense to anyone, I need to cut back on Dr Peppers and Milk Duds.

I see what you're getting at but this is where suspension tuning becomes a bit of witchcraft. A good coilover setup is the best way to improve grip but again, they're not going to address every need that the car, or more importantly the driver, has. This is why the feedback a driver is able to provide is critical to the suspension tuner. Which is why I have many pieces added to my setup, which includes a good set of coilovers.

You mentioned corner balancing. Think of your car as your kitchen table and each coilover is a table leg. If one is longer or shorter, the table rocks and it doesn't sit flat. This obviously negatively effects the way a car's suspension works as well as makes it extremely annoying to eat your dinner. By balancing the car, you're able to get the most out of your setup.

One more thing to bake your noodle.........I would shy away from using the term ultimate grip front and rear. Even the Evo in stock form will at some stage achieve ultimate grip. On stock tires you cannot exceed 1G of force in acceleration, braking or steady state cornering (the traction circle). Race rubber on a non-aero car is +/- 2 G's, somebody else probably has a more exact number so don't take that as gospel. Anyway, in a stock tire scenario, you're not going to exceed 1 total G of force on the tires so you have to figure how to balance that between front and rear. If you can find that balance, you will go faster!
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Old 05-01-2007, 10:29 AM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Thanks for the reply. At least I know I'm not going mad.

I didn't realize that installation of a sway bar would take that long (10 hours!), but your analogy of the unequal length table leg is a good one. As you have also put rightly, the art of suspension tuning is akin to witchcraft and dark arts, as there is no fixed formula, and that tuning differs from the driving style of the individual.
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