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Old 08-22-2007, 10:02 AM   #1 (permalink)
FJF
 
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Rear anti-sway bar effect

For those who are fond of having an aftermarket rear anti-sway bar, do you pitch the car into a corner to the point of hearing (very) loud tire squeal from the Advans?
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:19 PM   #2 (permalink)
 
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Define 'pitch'. Also, are you referring to street driving or track/autocross driving?

I don't 'throw' my car into a corner, because I try to be as smooth as possible in order to carry as much speed and to be able to get a good corner exit speed.

Im on ADVAN Sport tyres, and they squeal like a pig on a stick anyhow, but the rear sway bars allow me to rotate the car better.

I'm currently running 3 degrees of negative camber on the front, and 1.1 (negative) degrees on the rear, with 0 toe all around, and the extreme camber on the front makes the front-end light and unresponsive on initial turn-in. Because of this, I tend to take sharper angles, which due to the caster, give me a really good contact patch on turning, and I usually get all 4 wheels lightly chirping, just going 7/10ths on street.

On the street, I try not to get the tyres to squeal as there are too many unpredictable environmental factors that make it dangerous to push any harder. Hence, it's only just chirps.

On track, going balls-out in a time attack mode, the tyres squeal big time but never scrub, and I use the setup to get the car to rotate so that I can get the nose pointing through the apex, which allows me to get on the power really early and clip 9 out of every 10 apexes.
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Old 08-22-2007, 02:27 PM   #3 (permalink)
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You just answered my question and its intended follow-up. Thank you.
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Old 08-22-2007, 02:42 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Sorry, forgot to ask - will I need an alignment after installing a rear bar?
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Old 08-22-2007, 03:48 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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These cars get out of alignment easily from what I've seen. But I've never heard of anyone needing an re-alignment, especially for street use.

Jared
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Old 08-22-2007, 05:58 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghoonk View Post
On track, going balls-out in a time attack mode, the tyres squeal big time but never scrub, and I use the setup to get the car to rotate so that I can get the nose pointing through the apex, which allows me to get on the power really early and clip 9 out of every 10 apexes.
Ghoonk, if the tires are squealing like that, then you definitely are scrubbing speed. They squeal when they are beyond their grip threshold.





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Old 08-22-2007, 09:00 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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That's what I thought too, but the ADVAN Sports I have on now have seen 6 track days and they are notorious among the track guys for being really noisy tires. For the same reason that you mentioned, I consulted the Yokohama guys and the track instructors and was told that it was fine -- lots of sound, but no signs of traction loss, except in areas where I deliberately broke traction for a better angle.

To the OP, there is a bit of debate going on about whether an alignment is required after installation of a sway bar. In an earlier topic, it was clarified that adjusting the settings on the sway bar does not require an alignment. However, some people remain divided on getting an alignment done after installing a sway bar. I, for one, had an alignment done after my sway bar install
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Old 08-22-2007, 10:18 PM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Fine is one thing...saying it scrubs 0 speed when squealing is another. I am not sure why one specific tire would squeal when not losing traction all others do. It's the same for me whether I'm on snow tires, street tires, or race tires. When they're howling, I'm beyond their grip threshold. I'm still fast as hell but not as fast as possible.





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Old 08-22-2007, 10:26 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Actually, now that I think about it, I do have a habit of using tires, engine and brakes to manage speed. I don't scrub them to the point where you can feel them shuddering, but I guess if you think about the physics of it - converting kinetic energy into heat through a very very low level of scrubbing - then it does make sense.

I get more squeal as I'm usually at (or just very slightly below or beyond) the limits of adhesion in the corners, and I deliberately let the tires let go for the purpose of rotating the car.

Surprisingly enough, after 6 track days, I've barely worn the tires down past the 80% mark (i.e. lots of thread remaining), though I do have quite a number of flat spots (nothing major) which I can tell from the increased NVH getting into the cabin.

Probably not the best way to drive, but from what I've been told, the timing isn't bad, and people looking at my driving comment about how the car doesn't track lines the way a Caterham does. Feedback has been that I don't have a habit of braking late, the car has a 'freaky' way of rotating (i.e. tail steps out minutely), and rockets out of the corner.

The timing i get when there's less squeal isn't as good as if I get the car squealing in the 'right' places, which I find somewhat odd.

Thanks, Warr. That got me reflecting more about my driving style. Hmm.
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Old 08-22-2007, 11:00 PM   #10 (permalink)
 
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You have thought more about your driving in this one post than I have in all my years combined. I just drive. I couldn't tell you all the little special things I do that work or don't work. I just do it. One day, I may get training and learn "why" and "how," but for now, it's just "do."





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Old 08-22-2007, 11:38 PM   #11 (permalink)
 
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Hell, tell me about it. It's not so much thinking as it is reflection and post-mortem of how I drive and which areas need improving.

The only reason I clocked a good time on my lap was because I was trying not to lose a Caterham and a Golf GTI Cup car, both stripped out, with roll cage and light as well.

If I had my way, I'd enroll for Skip Barber's 3 day course, but that's halfway across the world and my priorities lie in saving up for a house (just got married in July)
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Old 08-30-2007, 04:22 PM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghoonk View Post
If I had my way, I'd enroll for Skip Barber's 3 day course, but that's halfway across the world and my priorities lie in saving up for a house (just got married in July)
I highly recommend doing that, even if its only the high performance school. You will learn more in that one day that you would have doing trackdays for a year
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Old 09-01-2007, 06:30 PM   #13 (permalink)
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My Hotchkis rear bar is installed and set at the middle setting. I was hoping that it would balance-out the added weight of the FMIC, but I think it's too much oversteer for me, as I find myself cornering at a lower speed - not good. Considering that I can pivot the car (depending on the circumstances and how I setup the corner) with the stock setup. I'm seriously thinking of setting the bar at it's lower setting (ie. 10% stiffer that stock), but before I decide, I'll drive it a bit more. BTW, the anti-roll bar fit perfectly.

Thoughts? Insight?
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Old 09-03-2007, 11:48 AM   #14 (permalink)
 
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I would just say to take the car down to the track and get a couple of good laps to find out how the car handles with the current setting, and if it's not dramatic oversteer, try tinkering around with your alignment instead of the sway bar.

My sway bar is very controllable at this point in time, and all i do is fine tune the alignment (toe-in on rear for more rear end stability and grip, toe-out for better rotation and looseness' more negative camber for better grip, less negative camber for less grip, as a rule of thumb).
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Old 09-11-2007, 09:31 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Ghoonk, thank you for taking the time to address my question. I wish I had the ability to play with the alignment settings, but I'm working on it. I did change the rear bar stiffness to 10% and I'm comfortable with it until I can test the suspension in a more controlled environment. Really, I love the handling as it sits, helped in no small measure (at least when it comes to driver feel and confidence) by lightening the rotational mass by ~6lbs per front corner.

I'll need new tires by next Summer and I'm thinking of Michelin Pilot PS2s in stock size - only 22lbs each.
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